6: Those Who Stay

Those Who Can't Teach Anymore

The first step to solving the problem of teacher attrition is to admit that there is a problem. Some groups have already taken this step, and they are listening to teachers in order to create solutions that will retain teachers. These programs make a big difference, but their approach isn’t the norm. In this episode, we hear about successful efforts to keep teachers in education, and we’ll ask the question: Who should have the responsibility of keeping teachers in education?

Music:

Theme Song By Julian Saporiti

“Sunlight” by Nul Tiel Records is licensed under a CC BY-NC-SA license.

“I’m Fat” by Blanket Music is licensed under a CC BY-NC license.

“Keep The Prices Down” by Blanket Music is licensed under a CC BY-NC license.

“Kaptan Hayvanlar Alemi” by Hayvanlar Alemi is licensed under a CC BY-NC-SA license.

“Grab a Bargain” by Scott Holmes Music is licensed under a CC BY license.

“Place on my Bonfire” by Lobo Loco is licensed under a CC BY-NC-SA license.

“Your Paradigm Dial” by Origami Repetika is licensed under a CC BY license.

Transcipt

My third grade teacher had a phone booth in his classroom. It was a full size, glass booth that was mostly sound-proof. The phone booth was the choice place to spend any indoor recess, but during class, it was used as the equivalent of a time-out. Our teacher was a mustachioed man who called his facial hair his “cookie duster” and wore tinted-glasses and thick collared polyester shirts, If a student was misbehaving, he would point that student to the phone booth, and that’s where the student would remain for the rest of the lesson.

Discipline reigned in his class. I’m not sure if this is a quality of 3rd grade teachers in general, but both of the 3rd grade teachers at my school at the time were strict, and my parents loved it. I appreciate some of it now, but at the time I thought it was downright oppressive - especially disciplining groups of kids together, which I’m still not a fan of.

There was a week-stretch in particular where our class lost out on several recesses because a core group of kids were acting out. I don’t remember what they were doing, but I remember the sinking feeling of losing out on the chance to play tetherball or football or to climb on those tractor tires that were half buried in the ground and always had a faint smell of urine. We were stuck indoors.

I complained to my dad about the injustice when he picked me up from school. I ranted about inequity and being punished for something I didn’t do. And I remember his response clearly. He asked me if I was part of the problem or part of the solution. He had to explain what “solution”meant, and then he told me that I needed to think about whether I was helping or hurting the situation.

I realized that even if I wasn’t doing anything wrong, I still might not be part of the solution. Like a whole gaggle of my parents’ other truisms that I didn’t want to hear at the time, this has stuck with me.

We’ve spent the last 5 episodes looking at what factors, what problems, might be contributing to teachers leaving education. Over half of all teachers are considering leaving the profession, but there are teachers who are staying, some of them stay thanks to efforts made by organizations to convince teachers to remain in education. So, today, we’re going to think about solutions that keep brilliant teachers in education, but we’ll also ask the question, whose responsibility is it to keep teachers in education?

This is Those Who Can’t Teach Anymore, a 7-part podcast series exploring why teachers are leaving education and what can be done to stop the exodus. I’m Charles Fournier.

Here is part 6: “Those Who Stay”

Elizabeth Smith: I brought mimosas. I hope you don't mind.

I met Elizabeth on the back patio of the Middle Fork restaurant in Lander, Wyoming. If her voice sounds familiar, it’s because we heard from her earlier in the series.

She wore a blue dress with flower print and she carried a binder and a tote bag. The binder had a copy of her research thesis about retention of teachers on reservations and from the bag she pulled two flute champagne glasses, a jug of orange juice, and a bottle of champagne. Elizabeth is a veteran teacher, she loves teaching, and part of why she loves it might have to do some with her background. As we drank mimosas under the shade of a tree, she told me about her unique upbringing.

Elizabeth Smith: I have a very, very crazy back story. I was raised in a cult. And I dropped out of school in seventh grade. And I never went to high school. And we were raised in a situation in which we didn't have television or outside influence. So I was very isolated and programmed to believe a certain way. And so I got my GED when I was 19, the same year, I got my driver's license, I ran away from home twice, and was successfully out of the house and the religion, the high control, the second time that I left, and so my understanding of educators is completely different.

A quality of early American education that we learned about in the second episode was the idea that teachers would be taught in the education system themselves and so the education hierarchy would be ingrained into them – it was almost a pre-teacher training. Elizabeth didn’t go to public school, so some of these stereotypical expectations aren’t perpetuated in her teaching practice, which might contribute to why she loves it.

Elizabeth Smith: I love what I do. I love teaching, I have high respect for myself, in the work that I do. I know the mistakes that I make, in reflection, for the most part, I'm sure there's some that I'm unaware of, but I enjoy helping people understand themselves, you know, because it's been a huge chore of mine to be able to get to the point where I have undone all the programming that I have experienced in life.

And because of her youth, she was drawn to a sense of spirituality she found in teaching.

Elizabeth Smith: Coming from a really hardcore, high control, religious background. I feel like I suffered spiritual abuse. And so disconnected me from myself, in a lot of ways. And so my whole life, like I told you has been spent trying to figure out who I am. And one of the things in teaching that you'll, especially if you read my research, you'll see that the spiritual connection with making relationships with other people and knowing that what you're doing is valued is a big part of spirituality.

The research Elizabeth points to was tied to her Masters Thesis. She focused on why teachers stay, especially non-native teachers, in reservation schools. What Elizabeth found is that those who stay feel a sense of acceptance, a sense of appreciation that what they bring to a community is valuable. And this is why Elizabeth stays too. She feels like what she does matters. She feels a connection to her students and, for the most part, she feels valued as a teacher.

Elizabeth Smith: I've only taught on reservation schools. So I've only taught in Indian country and there is a cultural perception from Native communities that really value teachers. So that's one of the reasons why non-native teachers decided to stay and have such longevity in reservation country because there is an old school respect for teachers.

I want to be transparent here. Elizabeth isn’t totally satisfied with her job - we’re drinking mimosas because she just finished up the school day and wanted to wind down. During our conversation, Elizabeth pointed out her frustrations, which echo many of the frustrations that we’ve heard in this podcast. She explained situations where she felt devalued or not listened to or stretched thin. She admitted that after teaching for 20 years, the thought of leaving education has crossed her mind, but she said that as long as this year feels like things are getting better, she plans on staying in education.

And this is worth pointing out - even teachers that are staying in education by choice have frustrations. I say by choice because there are the teachers that feel stuck because they are close to retirement, need the insurance, or need the immediate income. Part of what’s keeping Elizabeth, even when she has frustrations, is the fact that she feels like what she does matters and that she feels valued in her community.

Those things might seem small, but we’re at a point where many teachers are frustrated and feel neither value nor purpose.

I have felt that. The past few years especially - it didn’t feel like anything I did in my classroom mattered, and too often when I met someone new and told them I was a teacher, they’d tell me a story about how bad their kid’s teachers were or how they had chewed out some teacher for something that, when they explained it to me, was just a terrible reason. They acted righteous and I felt devalued by association.

What picked me up was this project - the one that you’re listening to right now. A podcast that explores why teachers were leaving education was a thought I have talked with my wife about since she left teaching, but I never pursued it. Not until I saw and applied for a Fund for Teachers Fellowship, which is a grant for teachers who want to create their own form of professional development. This seems small, but it’s kind of mind-blowing and has made a world of difference for me.

Stephanie Ascherl: Teachers don't usually get a lot of choice. Professional development is determined for them, it's very top down.

This is Stephanie Ascherl, she is the Chief of Staff at Fund for Teachers, and she’s worked for the organization going on 18 years.

Stephanie Ascherl: What's unique about Fund For Teachers is that we empower the teacher to tell us, no one at Fund for Teachers will ever tell you what you should do to be a better teacher because we really trust that you know yourself and your students better than anybody.

Stephanie was not a teacher herself though she wanted to be a teacher when she was younger.

Stephanie Ascherl: I wanted to be a teacher until I was in high school. As you can tell I’m soft spoken. And I had a teacher who just was like, You're gonna have to learn how to talk a little bit louder, or find another way to give back.

When she started with Fund for Teachers, she really loved it, and I can see why. What stands out about Fund for Teachers as an organization is that they listen to teachers. Even though Stephanie wasn’t a teacher herself, she does exactly what we asked of legislators last episode, she, and the rest of her organization trust educators.

Stephanie Ascherl: I think, you know, here in Houston, we see think tanks, you know, may have a conversation with a group of teachers that then they take what they think they heard to the state legislator who then makes policy change, but why can't the teacher just talk directly to the legislature, like there's, we don't need all these middlemen, we need to invite teachers to the conversation and to participate actively in and with the people who are making decisions, and maybe how we're choosing the people who make decisions also needs to be looked at.

Fund for Teachers is not a government organization. They are a non-profit, and Stephanie acknowledges they can’t be the saviors of the American Educational system all on their own, but she knows that they are at least making a difference.

Stephanie Ascherl: I'm not naive, I know, there's bigger problems that we don't have control over. But I do hope that the, you know, we award about 350 to 400 teachers a year that those 300 to 400, people feel like they can do it another year, that they can keep moving forward, not just for their students, because that's what we hear so often is I don't want to leave the kids but that we really make them feel like they can do this for themselves. And that there are people that care, there are people that are invested.

I felt this tremendously. This fellowship did so much to make me feel valued, that there was someone out there who was rooting for teachers, and it makes a difference in teachers wanting to continue teaching - even if it’s just for one more year.

Stephanie Ascherl: In a very small study we did regionally that teachers who received Fund for Teachers, fellowships are more likely to stay in the classroom than their counterparts who did not receive a fellowship. And this study is incomplete. But it also showed that teachers who just applied so people who could feel like there is opportunity, there is hope. And even just thinking about their practice, maybe in a different way. That even they stayed a little bit longer.

Even with their positive impact, Stephanie pointed out that people in academics or other educational bodies have been somewhat dismissive of what Fund for Teachers is doing for educators.

Stephanie Ascherl: Somebody referred to us, like as a warm hug once and I was like, You know what, I don't even care because we are a hug, and people need a hug. And people need that encouragement. And that's not going to make everyone happy. But I care about those three or 400 people I interact with a year, and that's really my priority.

For a teacher feeling burned out and devalued, a hug is pretty dang nice. I needed that acknowledgement that I am a professional and enough of an expert to recognize what I need to be happy and successful in the classroom for another year. Policymakers, School Boards, Districts! Take note! When trying to solve the problem of teacher attrition, think WWFFTD. What would Fund for Teachers Do? Start by listening to teachers, let them decide what they need, and be encouraging and supportive - teachers need both a metaphorical and literal hug right now.

Acknowledgement is validating, and it gets at the heart of what Fund for Teachers wants to do despite how teachers are being treated across the country. As we’ve heard before, teachers haven’t been treated like professionals. Stephanie thinks it is in part because non-educators don’t want to think about it.

Stephanie Ascherl: I just think that, generally, as a society, we choose not to understand what happens in schools.

Stephanie Ascherl: People put their blinders on. And they don't want to acknowledge that there is an issue that needs to be solved. And they don't want to know any different because then you'd have to take action. When there's this kind of like, monolithic, almost problem. It's almost like you just don't know where to begin to help. And so you don't know what to do. And then you're almost frozen to inaction.

For Stephanie, for Fund for Teachers, this shift towards action and treating teachers as professionals to be valued begins with valuing education, which means inviting teachers to the table when decisions about education are being made. They are doing this by awarding grants for projects that are created by teachers. To get teachers feeling invested, they need to be involved, they need to be invested in.

Stephanie Ascherl: Fund For Teachers, invests in teachers, and we invest in their self designed professional development. Why should we treat teachers any different than any other professional. If I want to go learn more about marketing, or how to engage my board or things like that, I can do that. And why would we deprive teachers of that opportunity? And districts aren't meeting that need? And that's where fund for teachers kind of comes in?

Along with giving teachers the resources and freedom to design professional development that is individualized, Fund For Teachers also puts a lot of faith in what teachers get out of the fellowship. Remember a few episodes back when we talked about authentic experiences feeling superficial once they are measured? A part of why Fund for Teachers helps keep teachers in education and excited about learning is because they remove the barriers that teachers typically run into: like a lack of autonomy, feeling devalued, and being held to inauthentic standards

Stephanie Ascherl: We're not really into data. So we're not some we're not, we're very different from a lot of organizations that, you know, while we're trying to get there, it's never really been about improving test scores. It's really about what your problem is today, and how we can help you solve it. And so when we talk about impact, it can come in many forms is a teacher feeling renewed, and recognized for their efforts, and they want to stay in the classroom for another year. That then it kind of morphs into students seeing what could happen if I had my own agency, if I took control of my learning, what kind of change could I make in my community or my, just my school or my life. So it has this this wide like spectrum of benefits. And they're really dependent on the teacher themselves in the project that they did.

In simpler terms, Stephanie said their organization wants teachers to feel good about themselves, which is an absolute need for teachers at the moment.

Stephanie Ascherl: But I think holistically as an organization, we want teachers to walk away feeling trusted, respected, and encouraged because we know they're not getting that.

I’m proof - this approach works. But again, they're a small non-profit organization. What Fund for Teachers is doing, is not a national solution to teacher attrition on their own, but it could serve as a model. And Stephanie hopes that’s what happens.

Stephanie Ascherl: I really look forward to the day that Fund for Teachers doesn't have to exist, because that would mean that teachers are getting the resources they need. And professional development that is meaningful and authentic is just happening. It's not this really unique thing, because Fund for Teachers is the only organization in the country that allows teachers to design their own professional development.

But until schools have the funding and willingness to give teachers the freedom for authentic teacher-driven professional development, Fund For Teachers will be here, and they can be a spark or a lifeline for teachers that want to stay. And even if they’re that warm hug for teachers, they’re a warm hug that offers resources too. Here’s what Stephanie has to say to teachers that might need that something extra to keep their morale up and to keep their interest in teaching.

Stephanie Ascherl: We're offering you up to $5,000 an individual to do something during the summer that you know is going to make you a better teacher. And that's going to have a great the greatest impact on your students and school community. And we'd really encourage you to take advantage of that. Not only for yourself, but for your students.

As Stephanie pointed out, the fellowship gives teachers a ton of freedom - more than I’ve ever experienced as a high school teacher. I got to choose what I wanted to do. So, I focused on research, writing, and activism through podcasting, so that I could create authentic units tied to each of those things back to my classroom. And it has been an amazing experience. It feels so good to be trusted as an expert and a professional. So much so, that I got emotional when I told Stephanie this. The start of this year was the best I have felt coming back to school in several years. I had a sense of confidence and purpose that are a direct result of this fellowship.

Other teachers who have received their own fellowships reported similar reactions. They were thrilled to be treated like professionals. And these kinds of experiences can translate to effectiveness in the classroom when teachers are trusted to apply what they’ve learned into the classroom. When teachers feel confident and trusted and excited about what they do, that has a direct result on the experiences of students.

Lindsey Freeman, a former High School Agriculture Teacher, has a great example of the impact teachers can have on students when they feel good about what they are doing.

Lindsey Freeman: And when you're traveling with students, you've got to make sure that they're fed and watered and taken care of, and it's a little ag pun

Ag can provide those unique opportunities for lots of adventures, field trips, and activities because they are often associated with the Future Farmers of America, or FFA, which is a club that has events and competitions that kids can take part in.

Lindsey Freeman: So that's a lot of pressure for the teacher to make sure that not only they have their basic needs taken care of, but they're having the experience that maybe I had when I was in their shoes. And so we went on a trip one time, and I had some students with me, and I can remember I'm driving the suburban, and I'm just thinking, like, we're listening to music here. But these kids aren't really talking to each other. Are they having a good time? I don't know if I'm doing my job, right. And then so we go, and we do our thing. And then we come back, and we're on our way back. And this kid is sitting in the passenger seat, and he says, This has been the best week of my life.

This has stuck with Lindsey as a highlight of her teaching career. And for this student to have had the best week of his life, he needed a teacher like Lindsey who felt supported in her role and who had the resources to take her students on an adventure.

Lindsey liked teaching high school, but she took advantage of an opportunity to work at the University of Wyoming on a whim. She is still active in Wyoming education, and when I sat down with her, she had just been hired on as the Ag Program Director at Laramie County Community College. We sat in her new classroom surrounded by Cow Anatomy Flip Charts and diagrams explaining different pork and beef cuts, and Lindsey pointed out that as we work towards change that will help keep teachers, it can’t just be policy-based.

Lindsey Freeman: I think policy can go a long ways to help do some things, but it can only go so far. And so I think we have to think beyond policy to try to find, and because there's many factors to the problem, there's probably many solutions to the problem.

As we heard multiple teachers point out throughout this series, there isn’t a single factor that is pushing teachers out of education - it’s a layering of factors. So, Lindsey thinks there needs to be a multitude of solutions.

Lindsey Freeman: I don't think you can pinpoint one thing. And I think that maybe we're kind of spinning our wheels where we're trying to combat this teacher shortage, is we're trying to pinpoint the one thing, or the handful of things.

But there are a few things that would help. Lindsey kept coming back to one thing that could do a lot to help teachers want to become teachers and to stay once they are teachers.

Lindsey Freeman: I hate to say that it's all about the money. But it's hard even to recruit young people to enter the teaching profession, when they could go with the same set of skills and competencies and make a lot more money. I don't think teachers go into teaching to get rich, but they have to they have to be able to maintain a decent lifestyle, or they're gonna go do something else. And then and then they can so I don't think it's, I don't think it's realistic to expect teachers to, you know, live in poverty and continue to do this job.

Every time the call to pay teachers more comes up, we hear the rebuttal, “Well, where will that money come from?” and Lindsey acknowledges that that is a problem that needs to be solved.

Lindsey Freeman: Because like, where does that extra funding come from, to, you know, support, teacher salaries. But I totally understand that, that if there was an easy solution, we would have probably found it by now.

With this said, there are efforts to raise the wages of teachers at a national level. Most recently, Florida Congresswoman Frederica Wilson introduced the American Teacher Act, which would raise the minimum starting teacher salary to $60,000 and adjust for inflation. To put this into perspective, the United States’ average starting teacher salary, according to the National Education Association in the 2020-2021 school year, was just below $42,000. This Act, if passed, would help.

Lindsey pointed to one more adjustment that needs to occur as we recruit and train teachers.

Lindsey Freeman: We have to do a better job of showing young people how hard teaching is, and still encouraging them to pursue teaching as a profession in spite of that, because it's not going to be easy. And I think maybe that's part of the reason why we lose so many teachers early on, is because they're, we didn't we were upfront with them and honest with them about how hard it actually is because, like, personally, for me, I'm afraid that they're going to not want to teach after like I, you know, tell them and this is hard, this is hard.

People go into education with misconceptions about what teaching is going to be. Like we talked about in an earlier episode, teaching isn’t a movie. Lindsey wants to have a system that helps people recognize just how difficult teaching will be and to support and help teachers through the difficulties of teaching. Lindsey has been working with a group of people trying to address these difficulties in teaching.

Lindsey Freeman: Yeah, so I've been working at the University of Wyoming, with a group of faculty and well, a large group, actually, that they're developing a Wyoming Educator Mentor Corps. And so there's a lot of work going into mentoring. And hopefully, that can eventually and we might have to be patient, but hopefully, that can eventually trickle down into helping early and mid career teachers. Not just survive, you know, but actually be successful in like their job.

The Wyoming Teacher-Mentor Corps is a program designed by the University of Wyoming to, quote, “foster teacher excellence and provide expert support for emerging teachers.” The idea behind the program is that teachers, especially new teachers, need support, and veteran teachers often want to take a new step in their career. Currently, if a veteran teacher wants to progress their career that usually means becoming an administrator. This program hopes to give veteran teachers some agency and purpose by helping other teachers.

To learn more about the Teacher-Mentor Corps, I met up with Colby Gull, who is the Managing Director for the trustees education initiative in the College of Education at the University of Wyoming, and is a part of the Mentor Corps.

Colby Gull: So really, the idea behind the Mentor Corps is we want teachers to be happy in their job.

Colby has five kids, and he explained that he wants his kids to be with teachers who are happy and who love them.

Colby Gull: If they get teachers who are unhappy and feel unsupported and don't love their jobs, and don't love the kids, because they don't love the work, then that's not a that's not a good place for anybody. And so we hope that the Mentor Corps can help provide that support, so that teachers do feel supported and loved, and they do have a place to get additional support. And they can so that we will build a community of teachers who can support each other, whether you're in the same school or the same district or the same state. We want to have that support system built and structured.

Colby was a high school teacher, a principal, and a superintendent. He has a good idea of what it feels like to be an educator, and he wants a system that would have supported someone like him who felt overwhelmed when he got into the classroom.

Colby Gull: And then I got in the classroom, and it wasn't what I expected. And the kids weren't all eager to learn and excited for me to be there, they did not love me and think I was amazing. And I would just, I would get home, I'd wrap up the school day and just feel downtrodden.

Because teaching is hard. This is a theme. Colby emphasizes the difficulty of education because it isn’t something that seems to get a lot of legitimate attention. For Colby, we can help prevent teachers from leaving education by starting in teacher preparation programs, which might need a little adjustment themselves.

Colby Gull: In teacher prep programs, our faculty are like, they went through a teacher prep program, they were classroom teachers, and this is how it's been done. So somebody's probably gonna get mad at me. But we've always had this same mindset of this is how it's done. But I think fear, I think, discomfort on students part on teachers part on parents part. Well, that's not how we did it. This, that's not how I've ever done my classroom, why would I change now. And the legislature wants a little more control over things than that. And it's easy, it's easy to measure, seat time, it's a little harder to measure some of the other things that we're trying to measure.

So Colby wants to see a shift in what we value, maybe this would mean a shift towards the joy of learning, like Chris Rothfuss said last episode. This is where the Mentor Corps will help.

Colby Gull: I think that when we're new in a position, we don't know what we don't know. So we don't know what questions to ask. And having somebody that has some experience that has some training in mentoring. We will be helpful to just preemptively say, here's something that's coming up.

When I spoke with Colby this summer, they were just getting ready to train a cohort of teachers to be mentors. In many of these episodes, we’ve discussed the value of expertise. When thinking about what teachers need, it’s worth speaking with teachers. With this said, in order to train mentors to help other teachers, the Mentor Corps has sought the expertise of entities outside of education to address some of the issues educators are having within education.

Colby Gull: And we're not focusing on any K-12 skills that you would technically think about as K-12 . But we're going to focus on how to communicate effectively how to talk to somebody, and how to listen to somebody so that when you're sitting with your mentor and mentee having a conversation, it's meaningful, and there's good feedback going both ways, which is another skill we're going to work on is, is giving and receiving feedback.

Along with better communication, the program will help train mentors, with the help of Leadership Wyoming, to find a better work-life balance, which is a major struggle for teachers.

Colby Gull: We get out of balance really easily. And I think to a large measure that is to the detriment of our mental emotional health. And so we have, we have a strand on work life balance. And so we'll get introduced into that. And then we'll do a little piece about friendships and building relationships and having a trusting relationship, and confidentiality so that when they walk away, they'll have an introduction, all of those skills. And that's what we'll focus on over the 18 months are those skills and how they develop them.

So mentors will work through the mentorship program over the course of 18 months.

Colby Gull: And that's what our funding is for is for those three cohorts of mentors. So by the end, we'll have trained 60 mentors, 60 or so mentors. And then we'll develop a model of how that gets spread down through the state. So we can have a bigger impact than just 60. Because there are 350, some odd teacher opening jobs in Wyoming. So we need to have enough mentors to support all of those new teachers.

The goal of the Teaching-Mentor Corps is to help teachers support teachers. They want to give teachers some agency and help construct a support system that will hopefully help both new and veteran teachers stay in education. This is a noble goal.

Fund for Teachers and the Teaching-Mentor Corps won’t solve teacher attrition on their own, but they will help keep some teachers in education. But as Lindsey pointed out, we still need solutions that result in valuing teachers, which means paying teachers better.

When I asked Colby if the mentors participating in the Teacher-Mentor program will be paid for their mentorship of other teachers, he said no, not at this time. The program is a pilot and they could only get enough funding to pay for the training for the mentors. This is no fault of Colby or the program. I think this program is wonderful, and I would encourage anyone in Wyoming interested to apply to become a mentor.

But I do want to pause and draw attention at the larger reality this points to. When it comes to keeping teachers in education, the burden often lands right back on teachers.

The solutions to keeping teachers often requires more work, more time, and more stress, all for minimal to no compensation. Whether this is mentoring other teachers, going to legislative sessions or school board meetings, being on committees or task forces, writing for grants or fellowships, or making a podcast, it all takes time and almost all of it is done during a teacher’s “free time.” When will the burden of keeping teachers in education fall to non-educators? Will it be when enough teachers leave? Will it be when teacher attrition gets to a point that becomes inconvenient for non-educators?

I honestly don’t know that we’ll get to this point because people that teach care so much - that might be their tragic flaw. Several of the teachers that I spoke with over the course of this project were working on their own projects or going back to school to try to be part of the solution. And they do it because they care. These are people like Gary Martin who taught on the Wind River Reservation and went back to school for education. His dissertation is looking at how student trauma is being transferred to teachers and contributing to their attrition rate.

Gary Martin: Well, the attrition is crazy, because it's like, there's no stability, like teachers are staying like one or two years. And then next, you know, they're going to another district and I don't know about a lot of the students in, in other areas of state, but it's just like, students in general need, like stability. I mean, it's, the stability factor is lacking, especially when teacher that attrition is so high.

He knows that teachers leaving is hurting kids, but the onus should not be placed on teachers to stay so that kids aren’t hurt. That rhetoric is used often, and it’s tremendously manipulative. The programs that are trying to support teachers need to be funded and supported, and the burden of keeping teachers can’t be placed solely on teachers.

Meanwhile teachers are realizing that they have a lot of really great skills that can be applied in other careers - contrary to the thought that those who can’t do, teach. So if we want to keep teachers from leaving education, it might mean shaking up the way things have been done and taking some notes from groups like Fund for Teachers or the Teacher Mentor Corps who are actively trying to help teachers by asking teachers what they need, so that maybe we can have a system where teachers want to stay.

Or, teachers will keep leaving because they can. Next time, we will be hearing from teachers who have left teaching, how they left, and how their lives are now.

That will be next time, in the conclusion of Those Who Can’t Teach Anymore. With only one episode left, we want to hear from you. We want to hear your reactions to the podcast, or personal stories about education. If you are interested, please record a voice message that includes your name, background, and message, and send your recording to those who can’t teach anymore at gmail.com for the chance to be included in a bonus episode.

As always, thank you so much for listening. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast, leave a review, and share episodes with everyone you can think of. Word of mouth has done wonders for getting this podcast to people who need to hear it.

This episode was produced by me, Charles Fournier. It was edited by Melodie Edwards. Other editing help came from Noa Greenspan, Sarah-Ann Leverette, and Jennica Fournier. Our theme song is by Julian Saporiti. All other music can be found on our website. A special thanks to Stephanie Ascherl, Lindsey Freeman, Colby Gull, Elizabeth Smith, and Gary Martin for taking time to sit down and chat with me. If you are interested in applying for a Fund for Teachers Fellowship you can find their website at fund for teachers dot org. If you are interested in learning more about the Wyoming Teacher-Mentor Corps, there is a link in the transcript to this episode, and I will provide a link on our instagram page @thosewhocantteachanymore. This podcast is funded in part by the Fund for Teachers Fellowship.