335 – Investigative Journalism: A Pathway to Understanding Sex trafficking

Ending Human Trafficking Podcast

Brian Joseph joins Dr. Sandie Morgan as they discuss how investigative journalism can reveal the hidden realities of sex trafficking in the United States.

Brian Joseph

Brian Joseph is an investigative journalist with more than 20 years of experience uncovering stories of systemic corruption, criminal enterprises, and human exploitation. His latest book, Vegas Concierge, is a riveting expose that shines a light on the darker realities of the entertainment capital of the world.

Key Points

• Investigative journalism plays a crucial role in exposing human trafficking networks and systemic corruption.
• Vegas Concierge tells the story of Angela, a survivor of sex trafficking, providing insight into the lived experiences of victims.
• Las Vegas is considered a hub for trafficking activities, often referred to as a “Mecca” within the pimp subculture.
• The tipping culture in Las Vegas casinos facilitates trafficking by allowing trafficked women to navigate and avoid detection.
• Many traffickers coerce women into the sex trade by exploiting past trauma and manipulating their self-worth.
• Women often cycle through multiple traffickers, unable to break free from the system due to a lack of alternatives.
• Female traffickers are common, yet often overlooked in discussions around human trafficking.
• Institutional complicity and economic incentives within the casino and entertainment industries perpetuate trafficking.
• Grooming, though not explicitly illegal, is a critical step in the coercion and exploitation process.
• The book emphasizes the importance of understanding the specific details of trafficking cases, rather than generalizing experiences.
• Joseph highlights the nonpartisan nature of human trafficking as a human rights issue that should be prioritized politically.
• A call to action for readers is to engage deeply with the issue, educate themselves, and push for systemic change.

Resources

• Buy Book
• VegasConciergeBook.com

Transcript

[00:00:00] Sandie: Welcome to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast here at Vanguard University’s Global Center for Women and Justice in Orange County, California. This is episode number 335, Investigative Journalism, a Pathway to Understanding Sex Trafficking. We’re here with. Brian Joseph. My name is Dr. Sandy Morgan, and this is the show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking.

[00:00:51] Sandie: Brian Joseph is an investigative journalist with more than 20 years of experience uncovering stories of systemic corruption, criminal enterprises, and human exploitation. His latest book, Vegas Concierge, is a riveting expose that shines a light on the darker realities of the entertainment capital of the world.

[00:01:20] Sandie: Brian, welcome to our podcast.

[00:01:23] Brian: I’m glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

[00:01:25] Sandie: So you’re used to putting all of your energy into written expression. How are you enjoying being on the speaking circuit. I saw you last night at a book signing and last month at another one.

[00:01:43] Brian: It’s, it’s been a change. Obviously I’m feel more comfortable behind a keyboard than anywhere else, but this has been a lot of fun.

[00:01:49] Brian: It’s, it’s great to, you know, interact with folks that have read the book and, and it’s always a, you know, I enjoy talking with people.

[00:01:55] Sandie: All right. Well, we’re going to have a great conversation. I do have a keyboard here. I could let you hold. So, okay. So tell us what. What drove you to actually do more than just an investigative article, but an entire book?

[00:02:13] Brian: Well, I think, you know, by the time that, uh, uh, I started working specifically on, on the case that became the centerpiece of Vegas Concierge, I had already, you know, gathered quite a lot of information about domestic sex trafficking in the United States. And so, and then the, the story itself that does serve as a centerpiece of the book is such a winding tale that it, it just seemed quite, quite obvious that it would, it would most fit as a book rather than anything else.

[00:02:38] Brian: There was just so much material, so much of a plot that it, it would, I couldn’t imagine telling that story in any other way.

[00:02:45] Sandie: So let’s do, it’s really hard because this, I don’t remember how many pages it is, but can you give us, in a nutshell, the theme and your agenda as you processed how to put this story together?

[00:03:03] Brian: Well, uh, Vegas concierge uses a, uh, The tale of a years long investigation into sex trafficking in Las Vegas is a narrative vehicle to explore how American society fails victims and survivors of sex trafficking. It was a project that required a lot of sensitivity and required a lot of work to get it put together in such a way that it was, I felt that it could be beneficial and impactful to the larger society.

[00:03:30] Brian: And, uh, it was something that required a lot of, uh,

[00:03:40] Sandie: So one of the things, and it’s not a spoiler alert for our listeners, but one of the conclusions towards the end of Brian’s book is a great place to start as we explore more. In this story, he says, this is modern day slavery, a nonpartisan human rights issue. If there ever was one and it’s time it’s eradication becomes a part of the American political agenda.

[00:04:15] Sandie: And Brian. I am totally in sync with that. I have served in so many capacities and I am constantly bringing back to the table that this is nonpartisan. So as a disclaimer, before we start our conversation, cause we may not always agree, we are both committed. to the human dignity of our survivors and victims that are out there that we have not recovered.

[00:04:44] Sandie: Absolutely. So, okay. So, we’ll dive in. My first big question now is in your very unsettling story, what Initially inspired you to make Las Vegas the focal point.

[00:05:04] Brian: Well, that’s, that happened to be where I was, where I was based and where I began my investigation of domestic sex trafficking. So, to some degree, it was just, you know, where I happened to be.

[00:05:16] Brian: Now, on a more, on a grander scale, Vegas, as I understand it, is considered by, by many people in the, uh, the pimp prostitution subculture to be sort of the, the Mecca of, of that, of that community. And so it made sense to me to center the book on, in Vegas because it is such a, a nexus for this sort of activity.

[00:05:35] Sandie: I have to agree totally with that. I was shocked when I first came back from living overseas and got involved in understanding what sex trafficking looks like here in America, and discovered a pimp conference. In Las Vegas, they get together and they study and share notes and say, Oh, this works, but this doesn’t.

[00:06:00] Sandie: They collaborate in sharing knowledge, which honestly, one of the reasons I love doing this podcast is it’s an easy way to share what we’ve learned with others and connect it. our knowledge and insight. So give us a rundown on your top characters in this narrative.

[00:06:24] Brian: Well, I would use the word subjects because they are, they are, they are real people.

[00:06:27] Brian: Obviously, the, the primary subject of the book is Angela. She’s a survivor and we, we follow her through the course of her life and her experiences in the pimp prostitute subculture and as, as being trafficked. Another main subject is Don. He is a retired vice sergeant from Las Vegas who has a. Deep heart for these victims and survivors and was very disturbed to see how certain issues played out in the community.

[00:06:50] Brian: The primary trafficker in the book is a, uh, a hip hop music producer by the name of Molly mall. Uh, and then there’s a number of, of other people, other traffickers, other smaller characters that are, are subjects I should say that are, that are, that were victimized. And then there are just another collection of, of, of police and judicial figures in the book as well.

[00:07:10] Sandie: So one of the themes that was kind of new knowledge for me, I mean I supposed that there was a lot of connection with the hospitality industry in Vegas, but that’s an area that you established direct to. connections. Can you expand on how that helps us understand ways to intervene with victims, male and female, ways to begin to establish effective interventions to help them leave their victimization?

[00:07:56] Brian: Well, sure. So the book, uh, talks a lot about the interplay between victims and survivors of sex trafficking and sort of the larger casino industrial complex of Las Vegas. Uh, you see in the book, women who are being trafficked, who have to interact with people like taxi cab drivers or valets or security guards.

[00:08:16] Brian: And you see how, uh, The tipping culture of Vegas allows them to essentially work their way through the massive facilities that are casinos in Las Vegas.

[00:08:28] Sandie: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. This, this is a new New way of thinking the tipping culture is involved in human trafficking.

[00:08:37] Brian: Absolutely. So as you may may be aware Las Vegas Runs not

[00:08:42] Sandie: a regular visitor to Las Vegas.

[00:08:45] Sandie: So yeah, you have to educate me

[00:08:47] Brian: Sure, so a huge a huge way that business is done in Las Vegas involves involves tipping So if you you know, you want to you know You know, maybe, uh, get into a certain part of the casino that, uh, you might not otherwise have access to, or you want to, you know, find out, uh, you want to get a, a referral to, uh, you know, a cool club or whatever you might, uh, you might ask a, a taxi cab driver for, for referral and, and either you might tip them for that, or, or maybe, uh, the person that you refer them to the taxi cab driver refers you to might get a tip for, for, for that referral.

[00:09:21] Brian: And so that what happens with, uh, with. Victims and survivors of sex trafficking is they will, uh, they will often tip security guards to, to in a casino so that the security guards might let them know if police are in the area so they can watch their back or the security, they might tip the security guard so they can be allowed to, to loiter in an area where they otherwise might be not allowed to loiter.

[00:09:43] Brian: And so that sort of tipping culture is a, is a. Is a tool that women who are being trafficked used to to then work their ways through casinos in Las Vegas, and it’s a way for them to sort of operate without being detected. Now, it does speak to the sort of interplay between that that subculture and and the above board casinos that operate in Las Vegas.

[00:10:07] Brian: It does. I should point out that it’s unclear at the highest levels of casinos, whether they’re there. intimately aware of what’s going on or if they’re just sort of vaguely aware of what’s going on. I think, I don’t know that there’s any, there’s any doubt that the people at the highest levels know that this happens to some degree.

[00:10:22] Brian: I don’t know the extent to which they, they understand that this is happening.

[00:10:26] Sandie: Okay. So when we’re talking about these direct connections, then what other levels are there? You, you talk about entertainment, And, and sometimes it feels like even when you’re talking, talking up in a, in the story of tipping that this is something that the women are doing.

[00:10:52] Sandie: So it seems to take the trafficker, the pimp out of the story and she appears to have agency. Can you comment on that? On how that comes across.

[00:11:04] Brian: I want to make very clear that I don’t believe. Well, I don’t want to take agency away from anybody, but I want to make very clear that that when I’m talking about traffickers, I’m sorry, trafficked women engaging in perhaps tipping.

[00:11:17] Brian: This is not something that That they came up with on their own and that they decided they want to do. This is an expectation of them that’s placed on them by their trafficker. They need to do whatever is necessary to execute their goal of selling sex for the trafficker. And so these victims and survivors, these women have to learn sort of essentially the ropes of surviving in Vegas.

[00:11:36] Brian: And often they have, of course, most of the time they’ve been manipulated into into this lifestyle in the first place. So. On one hand, yes, they, I guess you could say that they consciously, you know, learn these skills in order to, to operate in Las Vegas, but on a much larger level, they have been coerced into this lifestyle and been convinced that they, they want to and desire to engage in this sort of behavior and that they are indeed being pressured to do whatever, whatever is necessary to, to make a buck in the sex industry.

[00:12:07] Sandie: And that really speaks to the blurred lines around the sense that we can call someone a seller and arrest them for selling illicit sex, but not the person. actually see them as a victim. So they look like they have agency. Can you speak to what you learned about grooming that results in this coercive manipulation?

[00:12:38] Brian: Well, absolutely. So, so grooming plays a central part of, of the victimization of, of women who are trafficked. Grooming in and of itself, as I think we discussed the other day, at least on its face, as I understand it, doesn’t doesn’t qualify as a crime. I mean, that’s just somebody cozying up to you, but it’s a very coercive behavior that then allows traffickers to become very close to their victims and essentially convince the victims that it’s their own initiative.

[00:13:08] Brian: And their own desire to engage in this behavior when in fact, I think the the record will show that these women have truly been been brainwashed and been manipulated into this lifestyle. But it is a very difficult and very subtle interaction that we’re talking about. And it’s something that most people have a difficulty wrapping their mind around.

[00:13:27] Brian: And it, and it, it. It’s different for for every trafficker and every victim. It’s, it’s very hard to talk about these things in in vague generalities or sort of in theory. You really, it’s, it’s really important to talk about them with, you know, in this specific case at hand, because Again, the, these things are so, are so nuanced.

[00:13:48] Brian: It’s just, it’s just very difficult to say in, in sort of broad strokes, you know, this is the way it is or that is the way it is. It, it, it’s, you really need to look at, I, I believe you really need to look very closely at the, uh, the facts of an individual case to be, to begin to understand, uh, what may be driving, uh, the behavior of a, uh, a woman who is being trafficked.

[00:14:07] Sandie: So what. Would you point out specifically about Angela that you used her story with her permission and collaboration to teach us about that? What are some key signs?

[00:14:22] Brian: Well, in Angela’s case, I mean, there’s a, there’s a number of, of potential signs you could point to. I mean, I think one of the largest one is, is the number of promises that were made to her by, by, by various, various traffickers that she engaged with.

[00:14:33] Brian: And there was always these promises of, you know, a dream team of lawyers of. You know, ascending to, you know, higher ranks of the, of the industry of, of, of, I guess you could even say protection or, um, satisfaction, you know, those were empty promises that she was given.

[00:14:51] Sandie: And you use the plural for traffickers.

[00:14:55] Sandie: And so give us kind of a timeline or, or a way to conceptualize the idea that this, this Crime is something that can often become a pattern in a victim’s life. They may get away from one trafficker to be controlled by another.

[00:15:18] Brian: Well, it’s important to understand that survivors and victims of sex trafficking often don’t Don’t have a clear view of their own of what’s going on with themselves.

[00:15:28] Brian: They don’t necessarily see themselves as victims they don’t necessarily really even see the At least initially the the coercion that’s been it’s been affecting them Oftentimes women who are are trafficked have suffered tremendous traumas earlier in their lives long before they ever thought about engaging in in sex work and and and What happens is, is these, these traffickers step in and exploit those traumas, exploit the, the, uh, the harm of those traumas caused, you know, perhaps they, they, uh, these women have low self esteem and a trafficker may step in and say, you know, you know, may, may, may pump her up, may, may make her feel good about herself and use that sort of connection to then push her into, into the work and into sex work.

[00:16:14] Brian: And so, So these women, this becomes all that they really know the, the, the only sort of relationships that they, they, they become familiar with are these sort of exploitative, coercive relationships. And so, yes, they may get tired with, with one trafficker. They may, they may get very upset with being beaten or being lied to and eventually leave.

[00:16:36] Brian: But once, once that happens, uh, they, they really don’t have a, uh, A picture in their brain of any other sort of relationship, and so then they become, you become victim to the, the coercion and exploitation of another trafficker and then another trafficker. And it’s very similar and akin to, uh, someone who engages in a serial, a series of, uh, of dysfunctional relationships.

[00:16:59] Brian: It’s very much in that same vein.

[00:17:02] Sandie: And. The, the lineup of people that trafficked Angela is horrendous and, but it really points to something people often overlook. Traffickers are not all like Hollywood images, and it’s, It’s wonderful that you point out that one of her traffickers was female, because we overlook that.

[00:17:29] Sandie: We look, uh, and in the early days of doing raids and busts to recover even quote unquote rescue victims, all of the women would be in the same room. And then we’d find out later, Oh my gosh. One of them was going around telling. them, what would happen to them if they. said anything. And so I eventually did some research that showed about 40 percent of sex trafficking traffickers are female.

[00:18:05] Sandie: And you did such a great job. And this isn’t supposed to be Great job, Brian. Podcast. But that was one of the highlights of the book for me is you told that story. Do you want to comment on how you saw that? Were you expecting that?

[00:18:22] Brian: I, uh, by the time I, uh, began working with Angela, I was familiar with the fact that there are at least some women who, who are traffickers.

[00:18:29] Brian: So that, that didn’t necessarily come as a surprise. I, of course, hearing. You know, the details of Angela’s story was, was very traumatic and very upsetting. And I, I would hope that anyone who reads the book would, would come to the same conclusion.

[00:18:44] Sandie: So good. So the institutional complicity that was, That was something that was a thread through the entire book and it actually Seemed to contribute to the the word that came to mind is a thriving money making industry.

[00:19:10] Sandie: And I, and I want to point out to folks listening that exploitation is the bottom line for sex trafficking. Someone else is profiting by commercially selling another person. So can you speak to how you told the story of that complicity?

[00:19:34] Brian: I told that story very carefully. I mean, the difficulty in in in reporting on something like that is it’s not necessarily something that people are going to want to talk about directly, and it’s not something that you’re going to find a lot of direct clear examples of.

[00:19:49] Brian: It’s something that you’re going to have to come to by by talking to someone here, looking at a document there and sort of beginning to put the pieces together yourself. There’s not one single. individual that’s going to be able to say, this is what’s going on in this situation. I mean, it’s something that you really need to, to piece together bit by bit.

[00:20:06] Brian: And that’s what I, I, I’d like to think we did in the book.

[00:20:09] Sandie: So what were some of your methods? You, what are you piecing together?

[00:20:14] Brian: Well, you know, my, my method as a, as a journalist is, is to be, is to be very thorough and be very careful and to, You know, to essentially, you know, talk to everyone that I possibly can and to review every, uh, piece and piece of written material that I can and, and to begin to see connections and draw connections and then, and then to return to my sources and ask him, am I making the right connections?

[00:20:34] Brian: Am I, am I seeing the right things? And uh, uh, did that numerous times over the course of this book and, and, uh, you know, repeatedly was told, yes, you’re on the right track. This is exactly what the picture truly is.

[00:20:48] Sandie: One of the things that I loved about how you told the story is you were totally committed and commented in the narrative in the chapters telling stories about the personal agency, the respect, and checking back to make sure you got it.

[00:21:11] Sandie: Right. From their perspective. What made that your like your plumb line for this? Because honestly, sometimes journalists are just looking to see how many people are going to read this. And I don’t always see a lot of it. Respect for the actual person behind the story.

[00:21:36] Brian: That’s just who I am as a person. I mean, that’s what matters to me and what’s important to me.

[00:21:40] Brian: I mean, the beauty of writing a book is that, you know, I got to call the shots about what the standards would be in terms of how we handled the approach, in terms of we handled the reporting and handled, you know, various disclosures. And the book just reflects what I believe is important.

[00:21:53] Sandie: So then if you’re speaking, I’m at a university, I have journalism students that I work with.

[00:22:01] Sandie: I was in a conversation yesterday with one of them. Success now looks like a model of social media getting likes and the clear. understanding is that if you want to get those, you have to do the sensational stuff. What was the personal price you paid because you didn’t go down that road?

[00:22:33] Brian: Well, I, I guess we’ll still see.

[00:22:34] Brian: I don’t, uh, you know, we’re only at the publication of the book. I don’t know at this point what sort of personal price I’ll pay for the approach that I’ve taken to this book. What I, what I will say is that my overriding concern the entire time, even to this day, is, is accuracy. I still find myself going, gosh, did I get that sentence right?

[00:22:51] Brian: Did I do that correctly? I mean, I just care very much about that. I mean, the notion of having, Popularity be a priority for me, which just, which just wasn’t there. My, my, my focus was on telling the best, most empathetic and truthful story that I could.

[00:23:08] Sandie: I, I just love how you treated the victims who were being exploited.

[00:23:14] Sandie: So sometimes we can clearly identify that someone is by law, by the elements of force, fraud and coercion, a victim. of sex trafficking, of human trafficking. But sometimes it’s not as clear, and I’ve heard you use, and I read, the word exploitation. So how are you using that language? Because language matters.

[00:23:44] Sandie: Absolutely. And it contributes to an understanding of that pathway. So talk to me about that.

[00:23:54] Brian: I mean, this may, this may be a simplistic way of putting it, but for purposes of our conversation, you know, I tend to very generally think of exploitation as, as simply, uh, another person laboring, uh, for the benefit of another.

[00:24:09] Brian: And that’s certainly what, uh, what is going on. As it relates to victims and survivors of sex trafficking, there is a pimp, uh, above them who, uh, through manipulation or through force, uh, makes them engage in activities and then the reaps almost, almost or entirely the benefits of those activities that to me is exploitation and should bother anyone with a pulse.

[00:24:35] Sandie: That shows the humanity side of you, Brian. I, I, when I think about exploitation, I actually have begun to look at it in my own world because it’s an economic term, which this human trafficking is an economically based crime.

[00:24:58] Brian: Absolutely.

[00:24:59] Sandie: And so we will be sitting around the table making a strategic plan for our company, our business, our, our newest program.

[00:25:11] Sandie: And someone will say, well, how can we exploit these resources? It’s a business term. And we’re very comfortable leveraging because leveraging is one of the elements of exploitation. Do you think culturally that kind of profit agenda is something we have ignored in our prevention and intervention? That’s

[00:25:40] Brian: a good question.

[00:25:40] Brian: I don’t, I don’t know. Um, I mean, if you, if you’re talking about using the term exploit as in the business terms of say, you know, you’re, you’re an automotive manufacturer and, uh, you’re in a meeting and you say, you know, we have a good relationship with this provider of tires and they can make a lot of tires quickly.

[00:26:00] Brian: We should exploit that by, you know, doing whatever. I don’t, I don’t find that upsetting. I find, I find using terms like exploitation or exploit in reference to people upsetting. So I guess my, my response to that would be context matters as well as, as language. And when you’re talking about people, I think we should, we should think more carefully and, and more thoroughly about the language we use.

[00:26:26] Sandie: I agree. One of the most interesting chapters is when you start talking about policy agendas. So talk to us about your understanding of decrim, legalization. What do you think is the most important thing for people to pay attention to?

[00:26:48] Brian: Well, I think, you know, there’s a number of different ideas on the table for addressing sex trafficking, both in the United States and elsewhere.

[00:26:56] Brian: There are a number of people in the anti trafficking movement here and across the globe who, who believe different things. You know, some believe legalization, some believe decrim, some believe the Nordic model, some believe, you know, the status quo is the, is the best way to go. Uh, Me speaking for myself only.

[00:27:13] Brian: I appreciate those, those debates, but I don’t know that the time is now to have those debates because from my perspective, it certainly seems that not enough people, at least in the United States, take this issue seriously. And so my belief is that instead of having these squabbles within the anti trafficking community over what, what’s the best way to move forward, there should be a focus on just.

[00:27:39] Brian: Getting the general public, the larger public to take this issue seriously. So that’s the, uh, The only, uh, message I guess that I would advocate for is just simply that my sense is that the general public doesn’t take this seriously enough and that that that really needs to be addressed before we begin talking about specific policy options.

[00:28:00] Sandie: And for our listeners, we’ve done a few interviews on this issue. Dr. Donna Hughes, Brad Miles, uh, Lisa Thompson talked to us about the kind of vocabulary we use. Um, her big concern has always been, Stayed in my head all the time, because when we start using language like sex worker, it legitimizes this as a job that your kid can grow up and aspire to, and that concerns me, which is why I prefer to look at this from the lens of exploitation, and I don’t have it.

[00:28:42] Sandie: An answer to where we need to go. I do believe that our law enforcement teams are beginning to recognize the victimization on a more general across the board, proactive policing agenda, like we talked about in the last episode. So I encourage you as a listener to make this a point to get more knowledge and insight, seek some education, because this is an area where intervention can begin to develop real concrete steps to help women and men leave that kind of exploitation.

[00:29:30] Sandie: Brian, I have two more questions for you. The first one is How long did it take you to write this book?

[00:29:38] Brian: That’s a good question. I mean, it depends on what you mean by, by write this. I, I, um, I spent a couple of years researching domestic sex trafficking when I was working for the paper in Las Vegas. When I then was on my own, I spent roughly four years working on the book involving both research and writing.

[00:29:56] Sandie: And have you changed your mind about anything? Have I changed my

[00:30:01] Brian: mind about anything? Yes, I guess, I guess if I had to point to one particular thing that has changed for me, it’s, it’s simply that this understanding that it’s very difficult to, to talk about relationships, to talk about individuals cases without looking at the specifics of those cases.

[00:30:19] Brian: As I mentioned before, it’s very, it’s very tempting to sort of talk about. Issues of sex and issues of exploitation and sort of a vague sort of way, but it’s really not helpful. We, we, we need to, to really, if we’re going to talk about, you know, A case, we need to talk about the case in its entirety in the details of the case, you can’t just sort of talk vaguely about, well, you know, my perception is that if I was in that situation, I would handle it this way.

[00:30:45] Brian: Well, you don’t really know because you don’t know all of the specifics of that case. So I guess for me, what’s changed is, is, is a, uh, I’m much less I’m less likely to, to think in sort of broad strokes and to think more specifically about each individual and each individual case that I come across.

[00:31:03] Sandie: Thank you for that. What is your call to action

[00:31:07] Brian: to your readers? Well, I don’t know that I have a call to action. I, you know, I, I, as a journalist, I, I work very hard to, to focus on, on telling the story. And to getting at the truth and letting other people decide what the, what the call to action is. I guess if I did have a call to action, it would be simply to, uh, uh, to engage with this issue in a, in a real and substantive way and to, uh, to not rely on what you’re seeing in, in pop culture and what’s being discussed vaguely in, in, in conversation, but to really understand it yourself and to educate yourself on this issue.

[00:31:40] Sandie: That’s great. And how can they get your book?

[00:31:42] Brian: So the, uh, um, the old catchphrase, you can get this book wherever books are sold actually does apply to Vegas concierge. Our publisher, Roman and Littlefield has an excellent distribution network. And my understanding is that you can get it, you know, just about any, any bookseller.

[00:31:57] Brian: So of course available online through Amazon and Barnes and Noble and other places like that. That’s wonderful. And do you have a website? We do. Our website is VegasConciergeBook. com. You can find some summary materials as well as some documents that we used to flesh out the research of the book.

[00:32:14] Sandie: All right.

[00:32:14] Sandie: And I did really appreciate the heavy annotations. You’ve been wonderful. Did a great job from a professor’s perspective of making sure people’s voices were documented, and that’s really commendable. I appreciate that. I look forward to your next book, and I have questions. That I’d like you to investigate.

[00:32:42] Sandie: Yeah, I’m all, I’m all ears. Thank you. Okay. All right. Well, thank you, Brian, for joining us today and for your dedication to exposing injustice. And for my listeners, I encourage you to follow up. It’s pretty heavy reading, but you will gain a deeper understanding of systems that are behind the scenes. That are not as easy to just say, well, we’ll fix this.

[00:33:12] Sandie: And it’s very nuanced and that comes across. Thank you for listening to the Ending Human Trafficking podcast. Go online if this is your first time and become a subscriber and you will receive the show notes every time an episode drops every two weeks. See you again soon. Bye.