Ep. 45 - Barbara Oakley: The Dark Side of Empathy

Human Nature with Roni Fouks

In today's episode, I spoke with Barbara Oakley about her work on pathological altruism and the dark side of empathy. Our discussion began by delving into Barbara's unique background and experiences, gaining valuable insights into her journey.

As the conversation unfolded, we addressed society's blindspot for pathological altruism, unraveling the Christian roots at the heart of our assumption that empathy for the weak and victimized is always good. The darker facets of empathy took center stage as we explored its potential for destructiveness in contexts such as codependency and abusive relationships. Our exploration extended to the cultural nuances surrounding altruism, shedding light on how its definition can significantly vary across diverse societies.

A focal point of our conversation was the vulnerability of highly agreeable individuals, particularly women, and their susceptibility to the influence of narcissistic personalities. We examined the potential harm in advising highly agreeable individuals to be more empathetic, since such a message can have a reinforcing effect on their self-sacrificing tendencies. Instead, agreeable people should be taught and encouraged to create healthy boundaries between themselves and others - boundaries that allow them to empathize with others without overidentifying and becoming consumed by others' feelings. We explored how Simon Baron Cohen's 'Empathizing - Systemizing' spectrum can be used to understand the characteristics of a hyper-empathizing brain type.

Our conversation extended to the influence of universities on ideologies, where we explored the promotion of Marxism, victimhood, and a pressure to conform to a perception of niceness. We also mentioned the overemphasis on teamwork in universities and its potential exploitation to the detriment of individual growth.

Lastly, we visited Ayn Rand's important work in warning the world of the dangers of socialism and misplaced altruism. Barbara shared some surprising facts about Ayn Rand's individualistic personality, which no doubt gave her the strength to speak out against the Soviet Union. We explored Ayn Rand's idea of selfishness and how a more expansive definition of the self can be used to integrate her philosophy with values such as relationships, family, and community.

I hope you enjoy this episode. Do let me know what you think about the dark side of empathy and agreeableness. Can you relate? Share your thoughts in the comments below. 💬

Barbara Ann Oakley is an American professor of engineering at Oakland University and McMaster University whose online courses on learning are some of the most popular massive open online course classes in the world. She is involved in multiple areas of research, ranging from behavioral science and STEM education, to learning practices.

🔗 Barbara's Website

Check out her books below:

📚 Cold Blooded Kindness

📚 Pathological Altruism

📚 Evil Genes

📚 Mindshift

00:00 Intro & Barbara's Journey

7:09 Why We Have a Blindspot for Pathological Altruism

8:35 Battered-Wives, Codependency, & When Empathy Turns Destructive

9:46 The Definition of Altruism Varies Across Cultures

11:46 Highly Agreeable Women Fall Prey to Narcissistic Men

17:41 Telling a Highly Agreeable Person to Be More Empathetic Can Be Harmful

19:34 Simon Baron Cohen's 'Empathizing - Systemizing' Spectrum

22:40 Why Empathy Isn't Always Good & When to Emotionally Disconnect

26:54 Healthy Balance Between Self-Interest & Empathizing w/ Others

29:14 Teamwork is Overemphasized & Taken Advantage of in Universities

31:18 Universities Push Marxism, Victimhood, & Always Being 'Nice'

32:06 Balancing Self & Other: What Did Ayn Rand Mean By Self Interest?

35:25 Marxism Doesn't Take Narcissists Into Account

37:55 Ayn Rand's Personality Gave Her Strength to Speak Out

40:31 Evidence that Ayn Rand Had a Narcissistic Personality Disorder

43:41 More Expansive Definition of Self: Me & Mine

44:18 Marxist Axioms: Selflessness is Good & We Can Change Human Nature

45:15 Case Study: Humanitarian Aid to Palestine Used for Terrorism

47:39 Confirmation Bias & Siding w/ the Underdog

50:06 Karl Popper's "Paradox of Tolerance"

51:53 Some People Care More About *Appearing* Good & Moral

54:19 Narcissists Like to Stick Together

55:16 Jordan Peterson's Research on Left-Wing Authoritarianism

56:24 How Do We Learn?

58:16 Practicing Is Good For Learning

1:00:23 Two Brain Networks & Modes of Thinking

1:02:02 Tedious Practice Can Lead to Mastery & Creativity

1:04:06 Applying These Strategies at Work & The Pomodoro Technique

1:07:30 Taking Breaks Increases Productivity & Insights

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